Suppose You Do Survive the Apocalypse…..Then What?

Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?

Last Updated on December 10, 2015

Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn’t over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?


In any type of grid-down event, there will be the struggle to survive initially. Suppose you do make it through the stages of a PA event and you are building your community, maybe extending your family by taking in orphans or entire families, and violence has subsided enough that you can barter with your neighbors. Have you thought of the finer details of living years without electricity, transportation, grocery stores, and factories? For the Prepper Journal’s Writing Contest, I thought I would share some of my thoughts on thriving during those years.

25 Tips for Post Apocalyptic Needs

1. I know I won’t ever get used to the smell of perspiration odor. There is no use in stockpiling anti-antiperspirants and deodorants—they lose their effectiveness in as little as three months in storage. Go to this wonderful web site and discover effective ways to prevent perspiration odor.

2. Kleenex ran out a long time ago. Unless you like snotty sleeves, you should stockpile a lot of bandannas and handkerchiefs.

3. Dislike flies on your food? Buy some good fly swatters, the kind with the leather flap that won’t tear up like the plastic things in the grocery stores now.

4. If you will be putting in a large garden and will have a number of people assigned to work in it, be sure you have enough hoes and other tools for several people to work at the same time. Most people only have one axe, one hoe, one rake, one pitch fork, etc. Need to plan on multiples. Also prepare to care for those people who will be working in the garden. Have lots of leather gloves in all sizes, gardening hats for men and women, thermal water bottles to keep water cool, and those chilly towels you wet and throw across the neck or head to stay as cool as possible. Provide sunscreen (make your own, commercial sunscreen loses its effectiveness after 1-2 years) and sunglasses for everyone. Also, do you have twine for tying up beans and twisty ties for tying tomatoes to stakes? Do you even have stakes or cages?

5. Just make life easy on yourself and stockpile fertilizer for the garden so you don’t have to rely solely on compost and manure. You may not have enough livestock to provide the manure you need and you will probably feed your food scraps to the pigs and chickens, so you won’t have much compost. Store fertilizer in an enclosed shed, away from sunlight so the plastic bags don’t crack open. The soil at our bug out location is overly sandy, so I am having multiple dump truck loads of loamy top soil brought in from another county to be tilled in. I’m doing everything to prepare now.

Plan on growing a lot of corn? Do you have a sheller?
Plan on growing a lot of corn? Do you have a sheller?

6. In the south, we will be growing corn as our staple food for people and animals. After the fresh corn is canned for people, the remainder will dry on the stalk for livestock usage. Do you have a corn sheller or two to take the kernels off? A great job for kids. Do you have burlap bags to put the kernels in and large needles with twine to sew the bags closed? In any place grain is stored, there will be mice. Do you have a large supply of D-con and mouse/rat traps?

7. So your tractor is not a 1960 Massey Ferguson. Your new John Deere tractor won’t work in an EMP scenario. How will the garden get prepared? Do you have a plow? Any animals and the harness to pull it? Plenty of people have horses but not the full accompaniment of harness for horses to plow or hitch up to a wagon. If you don’t have a large farm wagon to bring your crops in from the field (I’m thinking BIG field of corn), or from your fruit orchard, then you better buy a lot of those nice garden wagons from Tractor Supply that can be pulled by hand.

8. If your jeans get holes in the knees or tears anyplace else, do you have iron-on patches for them? Available at Walmart and JoAnn Fabrics. I use JoAnn Fabrics coupons to get 50% off any one item and every month I drop in and buy more patches, buttons, needles, elastic, Velcro, thread, and fleece material to make pajamas for those who may show up without any.
Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?

9. Wash day is not pleasant for anyone, but especially for someone with arthritis in the hands. Wringing clothes could be almost unbearable. Invest in large wash and rinse tubs, plunger type agitators and especially a good wringer (Lehmans.com). I also purchased long cuffed plastic gloves to protect hands from hot water (cracked hands may lead to infection).

10. I save empty wine bottles to put syrup and honey in. I also bought several bags of new corks from Amazon for them. Our group has friends who produce both syrup and honey but they wouldn’t have anywhere to buy bottles from. I can barter for honey and cane syrup with my bottles or maybe a piglet or another chicken.

11. Grinders will be important to have. From chunks of meat to apples for applesauce, you need some good kitchen turn-crank food grinders.

12. In even two years’ time, someone’s eyesight can deteriorate. Have a dozen or more pairs of magnifying reading glasses on hand in all strengths. Get some eyeglass repair kits, too, for those who already wear glasses. If you can afford it, get an extra pair of your current prescription glasses.

13. New shoes and clothes for children will be needed for every year of their lives. They are the only ones who cannot wear their same clothes for 2 or 3 years. Buy your children and grandchildren tennis shoes, boots, and clothes in each size for 5 years from now and each year add to that. I buy clothes and shoes in all sizes at outlet stores and plan to use the extras to barter or share with other families.

14. If you take in people who arrived with nothing but the clothes on their backs, you have to provide clothes, shoes, and bedding for them. The clothing and shoes I have. I have also bought foam mattresses with regular mattress ticking covers from Overstock.com. They come compressed and rolled into a short box. When it is time to use one, you just take it out of the box and it plumps up in a few hours with no plastic smell. I buy the 7-inch twin bed mattresses that cost about $100 each for a platform bed. (Put two side by side for a double.) We can make our beds from our lumber and plywood supplies. Shop for sheets, pillows and comforters during white sales that occur twice a year.

15. Even in a post-apocalyptic world, unless she is in starvation mode, a woman is still likely to get pregnant. For men and women who know that they don’t want any more children, go ahead and have a permanent sterilization procedure. Don’t let the end of the world as we know it come and not have taken care of this issue. Same goes for the tooth that has been bothering you, that thing you think might be skin cancer, and cataracts. Get all the surgeries you need now, while you can.

Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?
Your cookware choices will need to be more robust if you are cooking over a fire.

16. If the wife isn’t into prepping, tell her she needs to tend to this one thing: feminine hygiene items. If she doesn’t, she is liable to be using rags during her period. Feminine napkins can be opened and put into space-saving vacuum bags, compressing them for storage. (By the way, that is also how I store toilet tissue–compression.)
Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?

17. Men and women will probably relax their standards on shaving just because bathing will be more of an ordeal. Buy some quite affordable straight razors (Smokey Mountain Knife Works), strops, shaving brushes (Lehmans) and shaving soap for times you want to spruce up a bit. I can’t afford to buy five years’ worth of those razors that cost $6.99 a package. One straight razor lasts forever.

18. Don’t think your current pots, pans, and silverware are going to work out well in the after period. A solar oven will replace your crock pot. Large soup and stock pots will be needed because you will probably be cooking for a crowd and possibly on fewer burners. Restaurant sized, long-handled ladles and spoons will also be needed, as well as larger casserole dishes. Get a large Dutch oven, too. You will need more pot holders than you have now if you cook on a wood stove or open fire. Buy some heavy loaf pans for bread. You might make six or eight loaves a day so bread can be a filler for lunch and dinner meals. Bread boxes won’t hold that many loaves, so I save my plastic bread bags, fold them neatly, and store them away, along with the plastic closure tabs.

Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?
Over 500 canning recipes in an easy-to-read format.

19. Canning food is going to be the standard for preservation. I am constantly amazed at the PA fiction books that say they use canning jars they already had or those Grandma had in the basement. Trust me, Grandma didn’t have enough jars or lids to prepare for feeding a large family through the PA years. Sit down and think how many will be in the group, figure how many days out of the year, primarily winter and spring, that you will need to eat your canned food. I figured 4 quart jars twice a day for 5 months (in the south). That makes 1,224 quart jars, not counting the smaller pints for jams, jellies, relishes, and preserves. Everyone in the group needs to be buying canning jars (wide mouth are a lot easier to use) each time they go to Walmart. For my group, I planned on canning jar lids for six years, which would be 660 dozen lids. Go ahead and purchase new shuttle cocks and rubbers for your pressure cookers, so you will have a backup if one breaks. You need those really large pressure cookers that will hold 8-12 jars at a time. They cost just over $100. You can’t get the food processed quickly enough before it spoils if you use anything smaller….we have two large ones for our group. Buy the Ball Blue Book and memorize it.
Editor’s Note: This post is another entry in the Prepper Writing Contest from Angela Cassidy who brings up a subject that many preppers are considering. Once the supplies have been purchased or set aside, once you have assembled a mutual security group and gained as much training as possible, prepping isn't over. You are prepping for the crisis that might come but the days and weeks or year after the crisis are when you will be more dependent on your preps. Once you survive the apocalypse, what do you do then?20. How will you mow your yard with no mower or cut hay with no tractor? Buy a scythe and a sling. The sling will take out the weeds and grasses (and the stinging nettles and sand spurs that will grow without regular mowing), but you will want the scythe to cut hay for your livestock. If you want your children to be safe from snakes, you need to keep your yard from becoming overgrown, or do like the pioneers and get rid of grass all around the house for a good distance to keep snakes and fire from coming too close.

21. When the ketchup runs out, the children are likely to go into a blue funk. Go online now, while you have time and download HOW TO articles such as how to make ketchup, mayonnaise and mustard. Don’t stop there…look up how to make mosquito repellent, sun screen, an antibiotic cream, cough syrup, head lice remedy, and a million other things. I have two bug out 3 ring notebooks with recipes using the foods I have in storage in one and the HOW TO things in the other, all in plastic sleeves. Check out Homestead-and-Survival.com for these items.

22. Look in antique shops for one of those solid irons people used as late as the 1940s. You set it near the fire to heat up and iron until it cools down. You will need one of these for ironing on jeans patches, but it may also be used to cauterize a wound.

23. Of course, buy a million matches, but also buy a lighter for everyone in the group, children included. At a tobacco shop, you can purchase flints and extra wicks, and there is usually Zippo or Ronsonol lighter fluid in the check-out lane at Walmart. I don’t recommend butane lighters because I have already experienced how the butane evaporates and the lighter is empty when you need it. The same will happen with a Zippo, but it takes a lot longer and you can refill it.

24. We don’t have much livestock at our location now, but we plan to barter with trusted neighbors for pigs, goats, and a few cows. I have purchased collars/halters for all of the larger animals so we can handle them and bring them into the barn at night to reduce the chance of someone stealing them. I also bought tie-down stakes so we can put the goats on a line and move them around to graze different spots without having to fence them in.

25. Did you know that My Patriot Supply now has coffee with a long shelf life? I can hardly face the day without coffee, so it will be one of my next large purchases. I have my non-electric, sit-on-the burner percolator and 500 pounds of sugar. What a way to wake up to a new world every day.

85 comments
  1. Very good article, but I do have a question: regarding EMP effect, I was of the understanding that anything not actively electrified at the time of the occurrence will be unaffected. Most modern diesel tractors still have relatively simple, mechanically driven engines, so assuming that you weren’t running it at the time of the explosion, would they really be destroyed?

    1. According to the “Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack,” (www.empcommission.org) damage to vehicles that are NOT running is unlikely to occur from an EMP event. The Commission tested 37 automobiles (vintage 1986 to 2002) and 18 gas and diesel powered trucks with a vintage from 1991 to 2003, but apparently did not test farm tractors. A valid question would be to determine whether your tractor has a lot of computer chips that would be susceptible to the E1 phase of EMP. Cars and trucks that are newer than 2003 contain many more micro chips that are smaller, thinner, and less likely to withstand an impact that exceeds 12kV/M. It is worth noting that the Commission was responsible for returning all test vehicles in good working condition, but had no funding for repairs resulting from damage. Thus, there is some question as to how rigorous the testing was. The report is pretty detailed, very sobering, and weighs in at more than 200 pages, but it is well worth the time and effort to read.

      Another article that you may want to examine is “EMP Effects on Vehicles” at http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html. This article is more current than the Commission report and challenges some of the conclusions about the survivabilty of vehicles in an EMP.

    2. It is my understanding that the EMP creates the electrical current even if the system being effected is not under power. It’s like putting anything conductive in the microwave.
      I know of these experiments but do them at your own judgment. A simple experiment is to cut a grape in half leaving a piece of the skin attaching to two halves and put it in the microwave and watch the show. Another way which clearly shows the production of electrical current in a conductive object is to put an old CD disk in the microwave, but not too long because it will stink up the place. An incandescent bulb will light up in a microwave, before it burns out.
      I believe the reason that older circuits would require that they be in use before the EMP would blow them is because older circuits are larger and can handle more current so the added current of an EMP would overload only those circuits that were already in use. Whereas that same EMP generated current is more than enough to overwhelm many micro circuits in use today.
      Another thing to remember is that some things are already EMP hardened. Like the metal shell of an automobile would help protect the circuits inside? But as we know more and more autos use plastic and fiberglass for body panels which offer no protection. And most tractors are open sided around the engine compartment.
      I think you are right about diesel engines though. They are simple and even though you possibly wouldn’t have all the bells and whistles you could pretty easily get most diesels up and running after an EMP. That is why I bought a small fully mechanical diesel engine as an emergency power source. It has a starter but is easily cranked by pull rope as well.

  2. To this comprehensive and thoroughly depressing list I would add the purchase of a reloading bench, appropriate dies for your calibers, and an ample supply of gun powder. While you’re at it, stock up on a few thousand brass cartridges and bullets, unless you intend to make your own with lead.

      1. Yea but once you finally get it together you have it, i was thinking the same thing a few years ago, but little by little got a good stash together.

        1. For most of us that is the only way. It is good you are prepared. Over the years we have put up enough for our family and then a little more for barter.
          However our weather has been so wet (engineered) that it is destroying our crops 5 years in a row now. So we have been drying everything that makes it. At the same time storing vitamins and supplements.
          Spices too! Now I want to get a hand mill to grind beans and rice into flours for baking and flavoring. The next project is a solar oven for distilling water and cooking without electricity.

          1. I lost a crop this year too, first time since i started in 06, never seen this disease before, lots of other growers having trouble too, theres a little boice saying its engineered but then i try to dismiss that, for me its just a prompt to push on plan B.

      1. That’s a very good suggestion, but I was thinking of it as an ingredient for ‘other’ defensive purposes. I sincerely hope that the recovery of civilization will not depend on muzzle loaders; although they would be preferable to clubs and spears.

  3. What to do if you survive? You do anything you can to continue surviving. Work on your recipes for two legged pork, long pig. Study your reference materials and plant everything you can. Practice your edible plant identification. Read up on natural cover and alarm tactics. Learn ways to preserve foods without all the fancy gear.

    All birds are edible, So far I have not ate a reptile I did not like. Possum is an acquired taste.

      1. What ? Do you think you will do when you are starving. Never starved before have you? Did you know the Quran and the Hadith actually have rules about cannibalism and how it is acceptable. . .

        The wealthy world elite do it as well…. Yes it is sick so make it as a last resort. I look at it this way, I prepared others did not. They will come and they will do ALL THEY CAN to take what I have. They will bring weapons, they will rape and they will kill. Cook it long and hot. God also gave us the survival instinct. The lion in the jungle does not care when eating another lion in the jungle. Morality is always a wonderful thing when it benefits the immoral. The wealth Elite consider the rest of us useless feeders…

        1. Why should I care about a fake book written by some Talmudic Jews and a child molester like Mohammad? Some people would rather die then eat their own kind. You are one sick individual.

          We aren’t animals. You talk about “long pig” and then mention morality, that’s really rich.

          1. Why should YOU care? Fair Question. BECA– USE THEY BELIEVE IN IT. They care. Which places you on the dinner table. Sick? Perhaps. Realistic? Definitely.
            Is is all so easy to talk hypothetically about it, until the situation presents itself. I am guessing you do not know much about mine disasters and plane crashes in the Alps? It happens, it is real, (Donner party) and it cannot be denied by your morality. You do realize those who have not prepared will starve and you will become the object of their attention… History is replete with it.

            1. I think you’re taking what I meant out of context. I didn’t say Islam wasn’t a serious threat, I said I didn’t care what the book says, big difference. And again, cannibalism is sick and some people would choose to starve rather then eat their own kind.

              Again, I didn’t deny that people have eaten one another so it’s all a mute point.

          1. I can respect that choice. I have educated my family on the concept should I die do not let me go to waste. I do not care. This body is just a vessel and their lives are more important to me than my own. Nature teaches one thing religion teaches another and religion is driven by the wealthy Elite.
            It is a fact that the wealth Elite still practice cannibalism. But they do it for religious purposes and because it is considered a “delicacy”.

            1. You’re not making the distinction between organized religion and people who follow natural spiritual precepts, like the golden rule. Also, the elite have either created religions from thin air or have taken over what we call religion (like Rome co-opting what we call Christianity). The differences between what the Catholic church teaches and what the scriptures actually say are very, very different.

              1. Well said! I am glad you made that distinction. I am very spiritual but not at all “religious”. Let no man come between you and the Creator. The concept of praying to any thing other than the Creator is unacceptable. Yes the organized church co-opted religion(s) for their benefit. Religion itself is a control system that primarily benefits the Elite and raises individuals above others. The Vatican has taken that farther than any other religion.

              2. Thank you. I hate to say it but Lenin was right up to a point, religion is the opiate of the masses. Men and women will murder in the name of so-called religion, thinking they are somehow pleasing our Creator. How twisted is that?

                Yahushua (the man we call Jesus) taught His followers that they were all equal and that no one should lord over another. Then so-called “apostle” Paul comes on the scene after Yahushua had been put to death and ascended to the Father and taught the opposite. Strange how man decided to adopt Paul’s religion instead of following Yahushua, huh?

                Everything has to be a racket, money has to be made, people need their idols to pray to (and hey, it keeps the local idol maker in business!). Israel rejected the Creator and begged for Him to set a king over them like the other nations. How crazy is that? The Vatican is nothing more then the Babylonian mystery religions hidden beneath the cloak of Christianity.

                I agree with you, praying to anything or anyone other then our Creator is definitely unacceptable, not to mention that most people don’t really know who they are praying to. It can be dangerous.

              3. I am impressed! Yes the Vatican chose Pauline teachings because it served them. Just as in the time of Yeshua wood was scarce and crosses were not used until 300 years later. The cross itself is a much older symbol that serves the Illuminati/Elite. So Jesus was crucified on a post.
                Just as YHWH was an IN PERSON god until 300 BC and then just disappeared. No where in the bible do angels have wings until prophecy starts. Yet every “angel” was a human messenger. Many of the words have been co-opted even the term spirit back then meant a conveyance.
                Moses himself of extreme age may have been homo-capensis and perhaps a Pharaoh.
                Joseph was a carpenter but he was a Shipwright carpenter and they were the most wealthy. We are taught “Jesus was poor” and for modern people to hear of being laid in a manger (some think stable) a manger was a food trough, made of wood and the perfect size for a bassinet and commonly used for that secondary purpose.
                As for sleeping in a stable, there were worse places when it comes to an over crowded city where thieves and cut purses were most likely rampant knowing the arriving strangers were coming with monies to pay taxes. Easy pickings. Any shelter would be more secure than out in the open. With Joseph being a shipwright he would be carrying a great deal more than the average traveler. Then there are the whole other problems sleeping in the desert like camel spiders and scorpions.

              4. How do you feel about Paul? I have major problems when it comes to Paulos [Paulus]. First, he was a Pharisee and a Herod (related to the Herod Family, who were Edomites) and seemed to have a really big mouth. Secondly, he was always at odds with the true apostles of Messiah and accused their brethren of “spying” on him. And let’s not forget that Paul was forsaken by the rest of the assembly before he was executed.

                Messengers were both human and sometimes Bene Elohiym, and could appear in human form. Context is how you tell the difference. Never heard the term “homo-capensis” before? So many interesting mysteries. It’s tough to gain true understanding.

                Well, the family took shelter with the animals because of the feast. All the Hebrews were commanded to return to Jerusalem for Sukkot, that meant that there could have been around 2 million people staying in Jerusalem at the time, hence the limited space. I’m not sure about what Yoseph specifically did concerning carpentry but I’ll take your word on it.

                I’m not a mainstream Christian. I’ve done the whole “Hebrew Roots” thing but have slacked off due to all the confusion and the problems you run into dealing with human beings. I’m at the stage that I definitely am not a Jew (and wouldn’t want to be one, speaking of the modern meaning) nor can I believe that the Creator of the heavens and earth would destroy a person over eating a ham sandwich. All this means I’m in spiritual limbo currently, trying to figure things out for myself.

              5. You are well on your way to the truth. All our lives we were raised in church, at home, sometimes by the community and in school. Rarely if ever were we told the whole truth.
                They are learning today that the Northern hemisphere was about totally destroyed 11,800 years or more ago. North America got the worst of it.
                Yet all the history we were provided with tells us nothing.
                Homo-capensis is the Long Skull humans whose remains are found all over the world. In 2009 the Vatican broke ground and found a cemetery with over 140 homocapensis skeletons. Close enough to breed but not to bear viable children. (viable – capable of breeding themselves) This is why the Vatican changed it’s view regarding “aliens” over the last few years.
                Let common sense guide you.

              6. Ahh, thank you (homo-capensis). There was an interview with an ex-BIS banker (or the equivalent) who mentioned that they were being directed by these human-like beings (homo-capensis). I can’t say if it is true or not but is definitely interesting information.

                I’m still an agnostic when it comes to accurately dating the age of the earth and the age of human settlements/archaeological digs and such. Some believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old and others believe in formed very rapidly and is roughly 10,000 years old. More still believe it is 6,000 years old. Personally I don’t know who holds the correct answer. There is evidence which supports all three views.

                Isn’t it strange that the Vatican owns the great majority of telescopes all over the world? Stranger still is their “LUCIFER” telescope in Arizona. What a strange name for a telescope owned by a supposedly Christian organization?

                I’m at the point that I doubt most of what I have been told is the truth of this reality. They say the earth is a sphere yet we cannot measure any curvature using empirical science. They say we went to the moon yet NASA lost all of the telemetry data from the Apollo missions. Supposedly our world is surrounded by satellites, yet we’re catching NASA faking space by showing us fraudulent video feeds and composite pictures.

                I’ve decided to remain neutral as far as alleged “absolute” truth is concerned. The only thing I know with any certainty is that I am alive and that I am a created being living in a created universe (whatever a universe truly is).

              7. It is simple, we have been manipulated by the religious, royal, and political Elite all our lives. None of that was for our benefit.
                As for flat or round earth I have flown high enough to see the entire circle of the earth.
                The Earth’s surface curves 8 inches for every mile on average and as a Naval Navigator I have cruised the entire surface of the globe I have been up on the masts at 175 feet in the middle of the ocean and witnessed as mountainous islands rose out of the sea the closer we got to them.
                What I cannot understand is how people can believe in a flat earth and the also believe all the other planets are round?

                In space nature determines the natural shape of things and all things tend to become round.
                For those who are foolish enough to believe even in an engineered flat surface earth they deny the concept of logistics and energy loss that would be inherent is such a creation. Engineering alone and the losses involved would make it prohibitive even for the weakest minded engineers.

              8. Sorry Mike but the alleged curvature of the earth becomes exponential as the distance increases, that means the curvature becomes more pronounced between two points. What your eyes are seeing (the rising and falling of distant objects) is based on perspective and light. The human eye has limitations, ship masts only appear to rise and fall, it is a trick of perspective and light.

                For instance, using only your eye look upon a large container ship and notice that the bottom of the ship appears to be sinking due to the distance and limits of your vision. Keep watching and it will eventually disappear from your sight, the bottom first, then the top. Now use a telescope. Miraculously the entire ship returns into view! If it was curvature causing the obfuscation then you wouldn’t be able to see the ship at all using a telescope. But since the telescope has brought the ship back into view it was the limits of your vision that was causing the illusion.

                Again, curvature should be measurable if it exists, and it should be easy to demonstrate by carrying out a simply scientific experiment. Guess what? It has been carried out (The Bedford Levels Experiment). All of the physical (empirical) experiments that have been done from the surface of the earth have proved no curvature exists.

                I’ve been in planes too and I never saw any curvature. Now the scientists are saying that no one can see the curvature of the earth from planes unless they are higher then commercial jets travel (well above 35,000 feet). Here’s some video showing no curvature at all from very high up:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o

                Again, the limits of our vision, perspective, and light are responsible for the phenomenon of objects disappearing from the bottom up the further they are from us. You can do simple experiments yourself to prove this to be the truth. Gain a little altitude though and you can see further.

                Like I said before, I’m not sure what the actual truth really is because I’m limited to my own experiences. I cannot hop on a rocket and see for myself whether or not the earth is a sphere, if I want to believe the earth is a a sphere I have to trust that the authorities are telling me the truth. If I use my senses, reason, logic, and do some earth-bound empirical experiments, all of that together shows me the earth isn’t round.

                We really don’t know much about what we see in the sky. The great majority of pictures from space are either composites or air-brushed works of fiction based on an artist’s interpretations. Just because things appear like they are spheres doesn’t mean they in fact are. The theory of gravity creates complex problems that do not exist if said theory is removed. It all comes down to density and buoyancy.

                Anyone seeking real truth would have to admit that the only proof we have that our earth may be a sphere are the pictures that NASA sells us. There are plenty of scientists out there that argue against a spherical earth. But since they are not part of the manipulated scientific consensus they are ignored and ridiculed. It’s all very similar to what we have been discussing. The great majority of people would call you a nut for believing in a “global” conspiracy.

                Again though, I do not know the truth on this issue. I can only tell you what my eyes see and what I personally have experienced. The earth may indeed be a ball, and it might not be a ball. I find it totally insane that we cannot empirically measure and curvature using modern tools (lasers and such). In just six miles a person would be sixteen feet below the curvature, unable to be seen by an observer, yet the Bedford level experiment proved that there was not 16 feet of curvature and that the subject could easily be seen through the telescope.

                I would say the burden of proof would lie with you, to explain how we could see the target even though, theoretically, the target should have been well below the alleged curvature of the earth?

      2. Meat is meat. In dire circumstances, my pets would go first, then outsiders, then other members of my group. One less mouth to feed everyone else. (It may be a very TWD terminus or wolves mindset, but…I will do whatever it would take to keep me and mine alive)

        1. Have to disagree with you on that point Kristen. I don’t think I could ever do that. Maybe if we were in a extreme survival situation would I contemplate it, but I wouldn’t lure people into town for the express purpose of eating them.

          If you would do whatever it would take, I assume that also means stocking up food now, growing gardens, foraging, hunting, fishing….

          Pat

          1. Absolutely. Preserving, canning, drying, salting, growing a garden, etc. however, let’s say it’s not an emp or zombie horde that “ends humanity as we know it”. Let’s say all of the bees in the world die. Now there is no pollination (beyond wind driven, which is VERY minute compared to bee driven pollination). After a few years, there are no more fruits, no more veggies, no more grains, about a year (or less) after that happens, there is no more livestock, about a year after that, there is no more seafood. What do you eat when there is no more mountain house, no more canned, no more preserved, dried, or fresh food left? WHAT DO YOU EAT THEN? Long pig anyone?

            1. During a nuclear winter if you don’t bleed and store ALL freshly dead meat you would be very sorry. For those holding their noses at this during real starvation about 50% will eat human flesh. The rest starve to death and become snacks. Of interest it is those they are closest to emotionally that are the easiest to eat. Small scale studies and not double blinded lol.
              We have lots of food for our dogs but if it is a big, big bad that hits they get a great meal and then we eat them and the stored kibble. We love our dogs like children but they cannot survive a long term civilization collapse. They’re English Bull Terriers. They will survive a year long problem when many people don’t.
              As for your scenario I’d rather die early on than eat you later on and die anyhow.

            1. I prefer to kill the sick SOB who tries. Not just for self defense but as a moral obligation to the human race and the preservation of those dignity especially which can still be safe guarded even in times such as we discuss.

        2. Meat is not necessarily just meat. If cows eat each other they get a disease called “mad cow”. If humans eat other humans we suffer from the same disease. Somehow our DNA is coded in such a way as to deter the eating of one another’s flesh. Check it out for yourself if you don’t believe me. Tribes in the southern hemisphere (southeast Asia I believe) who in the past century ate one another, came down with serious neurological disorders from eating human flesh.

          1. Actually that’s not true. If cows and humans eat the BRAINS of their respective “meats”, neurological damage will occur. If only the muscle tissue is consumed, you’re ok.

    1. I have to say Mike, as someone who is imminently practical and straight forward that people preplanning on, or accept ahead of time, the acceptability of cannabalism are on my short list of people I would go out of my way to kill.
      From the image you have selected I will take it that you are a Vet. As a Marine, I assure you that your espousal of the idea of planning on cannabalism is repugnant and morally reprehensible. I don’t use this phrase lightly, but shame on you.
      Aside from that, you have good points.

      1. I understand, respect and feel exactly as you do. At the same time the narrative has to be made. People have to realize RIGHT NOW, Cannibalism is a fact and it is also religiously observed in the Quran by Islam.
        https://quranexplained.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/cannibalism-in-the-quran/
        http://shoebat.com/2013/01/28/islam-and-cannibalism/
        In a recent video interview, one Egyptian scholar exposed the high
        school curriculum coming from Al-Azhar university, the most reputable of all Islamic schools, showing that it condoned cannibalizing
        non-Muslims:
        We allowed the eating of the flesh of dead humans… under
        necessary conditions. It [dead human flesh] must not be cooked or
        grilled to avoid Haram (wrongdoing) …and he can kill a murtadd
        (apostate) and eat him
        The interviewer commented:
        The book that is being taught to general high-school students mentions that those who don’t pray can be grilled & then eaten
        I have no real intent to eat “people” especially not in today’s world of rampant disease laden sexually transmitted proclivities. However Islam being imported by criminal government for a purpose. Does not care. Their depopulation agenda continues.
        In all of these mindless “Zombie” television shows where the survivors are often portrayed with this narrative as well as the Zombies themselves feasting on “living” human flesh. this is exactly what will happen if not already is happening here in the USA with over 800,000 missing being reported every year.
        Imagine when the EBT stops and the lifetime on the dole, the “golden horde” leave their subsidized enclosures to cross the countryside, many will be cooked in their own homes…..
        It is unfortunate when a Donner Pass take place, or when a mine accident happens. It is an all together different thing when government created irresponsible hordes scour the rural zones taking what they wish. ALL of it pre-planned by the governing leadership…. Agenda 21 and population reduction by any means possible.

        1. Okay, first let me say one thing. I am sorry. I entirely misunderstood what you were saying and espousing. I was under the impression that you condoning the preplanning on cannibalism rather than attempting to educate people that such things would happen. My actions were such as to report to that position. As such, my actions were inappropriate, and you have my apologies.
          That being said, I still disagree that people should plan on doing so (though I agree that people should prepare for others becoming desperate enough) as proper planning (prevents piss poor performance) will allow not only for immediate food needs but the ability to have food production at the local level so as to negate the necessity of such extreme measures.

          1. Further, I would add I dont care what the Quran allows, except in to know my enemy. And yes, anyone who would knowingly practice cannibalism, ecwpt in the last extreme of their life, would be my enemy. As, they would have written themselves out of the human race.

          2. Glad to hear that, I already have prepared as well. The thought of having to stand watch over my gardens does piss me off. Apologies not necessary you were coming from the heart.
            I think of the golden horde and what to do with the bodies. Perhaps the city will have a way of disposal when time comes because I am too old and busted up to be digging graves…..
            We all have to be prepared, in at least enough to protect our neighborhoods. I need solar…

            1. Honestly, my plan is the burn the bodies, and possibly use the ash for fertilizer. I am not sold on the second half of that, but it would be something to consider.
              The thought of having to guard my garden doesn’t piss me off. I am fully aware of the NEED to do so, but I understand the other side too much to be pissed off. (Or at least, pissed off right now.) It’s part of why I won’t be a lone survivor, but part of a group. No one family (unless you are a family of about 13 functional adults) would be able to pull enough security while also getting other tasks accomplished to survive.

              1. We have enough in our neighborhood to have the man power and perhaps enough for an armory. I also have stored enough seeds to turn every yard into a garden. Of course teaching people to garden will not be easy but then nothing is. I teach weapons safety and how to fight so I expect I will be busy.

  4. Best not be tying up those tomato plants with twist ties unless you want to cut them in two. Also, the average family could not afford to prepare to that extent. Multiple garden tools, gloves & hats for every size, entire wardrobes for families of all ages & sizes? Unrealistic.

      1. the normal agee twist top lids n bottles can easily be reused to preserve in waterbath as normal top loosely fitted and tighten down as you take them out
        they pop n suck down in n hr or two
        those that dont? eat soon ie days.
        the rubber n clip ones dont last that long.

        the comment re deoderant etc not being viable after months?
        huh
        im using years old stash and it fine.

    1. My exact thoughts. Hundreds of dollars in mattress pads? Sheets,pillows and blankets for them? Hmm what about just some sleeping bags and ground cloths? 5 years worth of clothing? I can buy 10 packs of razors at Walmart for 3.00 that’s 330 razors or 6.5 years worth using 1 a week for the price of 1 mattress pad. Also where is all this supposed to be stored? Not a very realistic article IMHO

      1. Poorman, I fully concur with your closing statements. It is probably very uncomfortable for people to discuss the likelihood of such a high death rate, but there will be an abundance of ownerless garden rakes, blankets, and other survival commodities.

    2. I agree with the wardrobe part of this, but multiple hats and gloves and multiple garden tools of the kinds you will need isn’t so unrealistic.

  5. You forgot that you will need tonnes of benzos because of the tremendous and crippling PTSD that everyone would be suffering from after your paranoid fantasies come true. Have fun coming up with new ways to convince your loved ones (and yourself) from killing themselves!

  6. This list requires the accumulation of too much stuff. Knowledge is better, e.g., why buy and store multiple sets of farm tools when they could be made by a blacksmith when needed? If you’re going to be tending sheep, learn how to spin wool and weave. After all, your clothes are going to eventually wear out. Also, storing large quantities of matches is not only unsafe, but unnecessary as long as a decent ferro rod and striker are available.

    1. Good points, though I do believe in redundancy. Especially if a group does not have someone who knows blacksmithing. Having, for example, multiple plows allows for the work to get done while someone has time to learn the blacksmithing.
      I agree with the comment about not accumulating a lot of stuff because knowledge is better. But some things would be tremendously useful to have acquired before there is need.

  7. Despite the negative, unhelpful comments below, I found the article thought provoking. No two preppers are alike and any suggestions could be helpful to others. Thanks for the article, and you gave me a few new ideas.

    1. While there are items in the article that are thought provoking as you say that is because you are most likely a prepper already. I agree with much that was stated but to a novice prepper there is way to much buy and store of items. Food is important to store first,water is important to store first,meds are important to store first. This article assumes as far as I can tell that you have a alot of land,storage area and money and most new preppers don’t have any of these things and so will become discouraged reading something like this.

      1. I hope no one becomes discouraged….including those who write articles. I catch your drift, Poorman, not everyone is on the same playing field. We are all just prepping, so doing what you can is better than none at all. Some of us have been at this for years, some are just beginning. Some are urban, some suburban, some rural. There are articles for all.

  8. Thought provoking.
    Self sufficiency = make it yourself – Homesteading Manuals, 19th Century, on line.
    Willows grow quickly from cuttings, in damp places, good for many garden & household items, like ‘hurry-ups’ for slackers in the field. Other fast growers for dry areas.
    Empty guts make desperate people dangerous. A simple sling can deliver a silent removal order to any varmint in the radish patch.
    America Army Vietnam Cross-Bow; accurate/quiet/deadly/ DIY. Check on line.
    Silver for purifying water, [or a silver spoon to suck on]. needs electricity, bicycle?
    And whilst you’re waiting for the apple to fall off** the tree, read this, free, on line:
    “The Postman” – by David Brin
    @ a fraudster who delivered hope to a destroyed civilization.
    ** off of, for US dustbowlers.

  9. Folks that prepared for y2k and wasted money and got rid of supplies later on after the scare, ones I talked to (older retirees) will not start over and spend money they don’t have. Medical, insurance and other expenses take all they have. This article makes sense, and many incl me will have preps for weather issues, but will not get most items mentioned (been there done that) we all live in cites except one couple I know with fifteen acres and some chickens. Many would rather be dead than go thru survival after the collapse, because of radical lifestyle changes. Those on life saving meds (insulin, heart med.) will be dead anyway.

    1. To be 100% honest and straightforward, those that refuse to prep because they gave it all up are in for a world of hurt. Those that would rather be dead than adapt…well they are asking for it. I won’t quite say they deserve it because I’m not trying to pick a fihjt, but that about sums it up.
      Now if I am in a position to help the local community, I will do so. But the only people who get to put pressure on me for it without being shut down hard are my survival group. But I will decide not the people wanting, begging, attempting to force, etc that help. Those that can’t work and help out for the betterment of my group don’t get hand outs. If they can’t adapt to new realities…then it’s on them.

  10. poor man’s shower:
    55 GL drum cut in half and set upon stand with flashing around it forming a cylinder, fire underneath, some sort of regulation device to flow water down spout, sit and shower… or build a taller column/cylinder and stand. easy as pie, IF YOU CAN BAKE THAT IS!

  11. WHAT if you live in the city or suburbs,rasing livestock is not practical let alone problably illegal.So much of you list focuses on rural living like about 90% of prepping.I believe because it’s so much easier to focus on listing on issues especially since most if it is totally irrelevant to most of the people United States.Your article is informing mostly irrelevant to me.

    1. It isn’t irrelevant to those of us who (fortunately) do not live in cities or dense suburban areas. Perhaps articles like these will provide the motivation to abandon the metropolitan death zone where you apparently reside Your odds of survival will be greatly improved.

      1. Some of us cannot, too many business ties, some have relatives they must see to, etc. Some cannot afford to relocate on fixed income, etc.

        1. Which is unfortunate to be sure. However, that doesn’t mean the realities of getting out of the city is better for your survival chances. As I said to another poster just a short time ago, there are ways to do the things this article talks about in the city or out of it.

    2. I hear what you’re saying and agree with some of what you’re saying. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s illegal to have a garden anywhere, and I know a lot of cities are encouraging home gardens. Growing some foods may not be as “easy” as in the countryside, but it isn’t impossible.
      Also, you may consider canning produce you buy rather than grow. When done properly, canned food stores last for more than a year, so you would be able to put some things aside, and you can do canning with a stove and a pair of large pots.
      The greatest thing I would suggest, bowever, is try to find a way to get out of a city. Whether this is by moving out yourself, finding a team headquartered out of the city, or friends who you carefully ask if you could go to in times of emergency (like using the riots last year as an example) so your family isn’t in the immediate contention zone. However you do it, getting out of the city will be a huge improvement on survival chances.

  12. I’m not sure why I did this with this article, but strangely enough I didn’t read it until now, I just somehow scrolled thru it to the cannibalism replies. I have to say, while fairly well written, grammatically, I have to disagree with many of the points.
    First, how many people are you planning for in your PA commune and how much space do you have? At best, most of the prepper groups that I know of aren’t usually more than 10 people max. In ours, it is my family of 3 (including 1 toddler) and another family of 5-6 (including 3 children under the age of 10). My family has 23 acres and the other family is working on getting the down payment for the 37 acre plot of land adjoining ours. Currently about 90% of this 60 acres is forested. But even with all this wood and brush, if it were eventually cleared out, it would allow for about 40 acres of arable land. Regardless, from all of our research, to feed a family of 4 and a small herd of livestock it only takes about 2-3 acres.
    Since we’re not planning on inviting every passing stranger to join us, there is no need for this gigantic stockpile of random items (like beds, sheets, and clothing). I am a seamstress, knitter and quilter by hobby, I can make about 25 blankets, and enough shirts, pants and dresses to clothe all 10 of us for the next 25 years with the stash of cloth I currently have. I can knit each person enough socks, hats, gloves, scarves etc for about the same amount of time. I am also working on an herbalism certificate, so almost any and every health concern will be covered by a small section of the garden. I can tan and work leather, give me one cow’s worth of leather and I can make tack/harness or various items of clothing.
    Maybe instead of stockpiling this giant pile of “stuff”, you should ask each member of your group what their skills are, then ask THEM to stock up on their necessary items. (Then once you are all together in your PA commune, have each person teach everyone else the basics of their skill set, and if someone shows an aptitude for something, have them apprentice under the teacher for more instruction.) if you acquire more people in your camp, make sure they’re not freeloading off you.
    You also don’t need a set of gardening tools for every person. 2-3 sets should be more than sufficient. Not every person is going to need a hoe at the same time (or if they do, tell them to get a stout branch and go look for antler sheds). Hand-me-downs work just fine for children, unless they’re so threadbare as to be obscene. Then you cut them up and use the fabric for other projects.
    (Sorry for the rant, but it seems like you’re doing waaaaay too much work for the rest of your group.)

    1. There are some good points in this, but there are some errors as well.
      For instance, a small amount of a garden won’t cover many or every health consideration. Some medicines require LARGE amounts of the medicinal to help cure. What happens if you don’t have enough? Or what about if your group is attacked and you have a couple of people that are wounded as a result? A small part of a small garden just won’t cut it. This isn’t to say don’t have the medicinal plants, but my group is preparing to have its own garden specifically FOR medicinal herbs.

      Second, while I absolutely applaud your comment about having different members learning different skills and different goods stockpiled, how are they going to be getting those goods to the retreat in a situation where they are not right next door? Yes, it is a good idea, but plan those logistics out ahead of time, or (as I would recommend) have them prepositioned so you don’t run into the risks of losing them on the road. That means there is going to be a lot of “stuff” somewhere. All of it useful, yes, but still stuff.
      You yourself also have admitted to having “stuff” when you said you can make clothes and knit clothing out of existing stock. I, again, applaud this, but it is still stuff. Useful, naturally, but it is still stuff. I don’t have 25 years worth of cloth. I’m not that far into my stocking, and right now food is a higher priority. Maybe it isn’t for you, and that’s fine. But the artless has to cover many bases.
      You have a good point about not everyone needing the same tool at the same time. On the other hand, having multiples means you have some redundancy (which is good!) and you have the ability to throw more than one person at a time a project which is always good.
      I also feel you may be missing the point of the article. Which is not to say “every person must have these!” but rather to keep in mind these are important things and ways to cover necessities. There isn’t any reason that someone, especially a group leader, couldn’t take these necessities and spread them over a group so that the impact to any one person or couple is minimalized.

      1. You have brought up many good points. However, many of the points I brought up are because I DO have the “stuff” I mentioned (like 25 years worth of various cloths and yarn). I also have almost 25 acres that can be planted with whatever is needed, and I plan on having a large medicinal plant garden (probably close to an acre in size).
        Redundancy is of course good, and others in our particular group are purchasing adjoining 27 and 18 acre plots of land. All land is mostly forest, so plenty of wood, and all of the land is old overgrown corn fields. So we know it is sustainable land.
        I have been accruing surgical grade medical supplies, as well as fabric that can be adjusted to medical use. Our food garden will be about 2 acres per 4 people, plus another acre or so for animal feed and general wheat.
        Even with all of this “stuff” it all fits into approximately 4 large Rubbermaid tubs. The physical books take up another large tub. So even with all this stuff, it only takes up a very small footprint on the property. All vehicles (except mine and I am trading mine in in the next month or so) are 4wd and able to carry all necessary items to location. And after April my family will be permanently living on our bug out property. (So less stuff to travel to location)

        1. Well, let me first say I never said you didn’t have the things you said you had. In fact a rather casual read will illuminate that I said I applaud your forethoughtfullness. So… that first have of your first paragraph is out of left field.
          Second, it almost doesn’t matter how much land you have. You said a small garden if you’re planting 2 or more acres that isn’t small. So that part is changing your story. So is the part where you say you’re doing your own medical garden. First you said it was a small part of the main garden. Once again changing your story, so my objection stands.
          I do have to question the validity of your statement of having the things listed due to your statement of how they are stored. I have a somewhat respectable supply of cloth, certainly not 25 years worth. Unless you are talking tubs the size of King Size beds, 25 years worth of cloth would not fit into 10 of them, let alone only 4. That is, frankly, a load of hogwash, and as such damages your credibility. That they make a small footprint on the property is believable if you have the amount of land you say that you do.
          As for the transportations, I could see how you took my statement as discussing the more obvious vehicular method. My apologies for the confusion, and please allow me to clarify. Do you have a prepared method of transport, in the sense of: A. A planned loading system of prioritized goods you need that you have practiced? B. What security arrangements have you made to ensure the aforementioned loading goes off without someone attempting to take your goods, or to fight off those who attack? C. What route considerations have you made for anyone who needs to travel any distance above say 2 miles? D. In that route planning have you put in scheduled rendezvous points in case someone gets seperated but makes it out alive? E. Have you thought of ways to reduce what you have to take with you so that you can go further between refilling the tanks? F. Have you planned on how you will be able to refuel?
          I do agree that living at your retreat (or as you call it bug out location) is a wise idea. My wife and I do the same thing. But that brings up my question in both the previous statement and Question E. above. If you and your family are going to live at the retreat permanently, have you thought of ways to reduce what others may have to haul with them?
          Once again, thank you for having an article you allow for public consumption.

          1. Ok let’s see. I never stated how large my garden would be. I stated that to feed a family of 4 you need approximately 2 acres of crops. And that is if EVERYTHING grows perfectly, is canned/prepared properly, etc. and from someone who has lived on a few multi-hundred acre farms in the past, 2 acres IS a small garden.
            Unless you are some sort of fashionista who changes their whole wardrobe every season, the amount of fabric I have would be plenty to make and/or patch pre existing clothing. As everyone (with the exception of the 2 smallest children) in my group has at least 2 sets of atacs, those clothes (and subsequent reusable fabrics) will last longer than your average set of clothes, I don’t see needing more fabric than I have in my one very large Rubbermaid. I’m not saying I won’t continue to gather more fabric, I’m just saying at present, I have quite a large “stash”. I am also quite skilled at packing, repacking and arranging all of the said items in the number of totes I expressed that I have. So unless you don’t understand what 25 years worth of books or fabric looks like, or how large my bins are, then you have no idea what you’re talking about.
            As for your other questions (aside those questioning the validity of my claims), yes we have practiced routes, refuels, have waypoints, etc planned. And once we are on the property, the other group members are planning to bring down anything they wish to have, but do not wish to carry with them.
            So anything else I missed that you feel the need to poke holes in to make yourself think your methods and words are more valid than mine?

            1. Okay, so I’m going to respond in bulleted points, as it’s easier for me to reference things. Please try not to take this personally and be defensive. It’s a bit irritating, personally, and I can demonstrate you are incorrect. It’s not about me, or you, either, it’s to get a better understanding for people choosing to read comments and thus help them. Not to attack you. Please bear that in mind.
              So, here we go:
              1.you say 2 acres, then you say you never said you said how much. One of these statements has to be wrong, as they are mutually exclusive.
              2. 2 acres isn’t small. You’re perspective may make it small, but that is subjective. Someone in the city would think it enormous. Either way, it isn’t “small” or inconsiderable, especially if you are attempting to do this by hand. I bring that up because you have specified hand tools in the original poat, so we are going to operate with that understanding in mind.
              3.Based on experience (my own in purchasing the material, but also for seamstresses who don’t waste anything *AT ALL* when making garments) I have run what it would take to keep 4 people in clothes from when they are born to the age of 25. The amount of cloth needed for 2 sets of cloths (T shirt and pants of 2 leg holes and covering the rear and front genital area. NOT specialized anything) for 4 people for 25 years is 680 yards of cloth. The statement that it fits in 1 Rubbermaid anything is ludicrous. And flat out wrong. Either you don’t understand fully what 25 years of cloth requires, or you’re lying. I am not accusing you of either, but those are the ONLY choices.
              4. Thank you for answering my A and E questions. I note you made no mention of B, C, D, or F. I grant you, OpSec should keep you from revealing details to strangers in public or private. On the other hand, it does not diminish the validity of my assertion that the article was lacking because these issues were not discussed AT ALL.
              5. As I previously stated, this isn’t about you. So, yes where issues are at hand, from someone who is attempting to give advice to people who may or may not have any realistic recognition of priorities and realistic ideas of the things needed to prepare, I will show the faults and errors. Maybe it will save lives.
              6. I said nothing about my methods, and again this isn’t about me. So it’s not about me being bwtter. It’s about me seeing a real issue with what your putting forward as “the way to do it” that can and will get people killed because they think they have it all taken care of, and their deficiency won’t be apparent until it is too late to do something about it.

              1. Ok bullet points to your bullet points:
                1. My original post says (and I quote) “Regardless, from all of our research, to feed a family of 4 and a small herd of livestock it only takes about 2-3 acres.” this is my quote. Please reread it if necessary. Next quote of mine ” I also have almost 25 acres that can be planted with whatever is needed, and I plan on having a large medicinal plant garden (probably close to an acre in size).” so thats stating I have approximately 10x the planting space required (FROM OUR RESEARCH) for a family of 4, and the medicinal garden is “close to an acre” in size. So please tell me where I am the incorrect one.
                2. You are correct in believing to some that 2 acres isn’t small, I will grant you that. However, to ME, it is small, and very doable with hand tools.
                3. I am a seamstress, I don’t waste anything when sewing, and I honestly find your estimation of 680 yds of fabric ludicrous. With good sturdy atacs or heavy denim type fabrics, (and jersey knits for tops) you do not need excessive amounts to make them last. I have store-bought jeans that are about a decade old (and this is wearing them 2-3x per week every week while riding and training horses, and I only mention this as horseback riding can be VERY tough on pants). Yes they are patched in a few small places, but still serviceable and still with 2 legs and covering anything God (or his creations) may find offensive in church. The only members of our (current) group that would require larger amounts of yardage, are the children. And by preparing for them beforehand (I.e. Purchasing multiple sets of larger asexual clothing that they ALL can ‘grow into’, or be worn with minor alterations (or belts) will reduce the cloth load needed. But even at a preposterous 2yds of fabric for one pair of pants (average is 1.5yds) 1 pr per year per person, I can still only come up with 200 yds for pants and let’s say another 100yds total for shirts. And at average 25 yds per bolt, that would make 12 bolts of fabric, which DOES fit in the rubbermaids I have.
                4. You are correct. OpSec will not allow me to discuss further with a stranger. Suffice it to say, we have those points covered.
                5. If it’s not about me, please stop trying to cut holes in MY plans. If “others” follow my planning and have a worse outcome than I do, that seems to me that they should not have been following MY plan, but rather come up with their own. Conversely, if someone in MY group has a better or different plan, I am more than willing to listen and even implement said “better plan” with no argument.
                6. I NEVER stated my way was the “right” (or even only) way to go about prepping or living post SHTF. I merely stated from your theoretical hole-poking that you seemed to feel your way was better or more correct than mine. And for YOUR group’s safety and well being, I hope that YOUR plan IS better…for YOUR group. For MY group, MY (technically “our”, since it is a group plan) plan is better.
                And for anyone planning on building your post SHTF plan to ONLY the items ‘John’ and I have been discussing, it is your own fault if you die. I will remind any and all reading that not even 1/100th of my group’s total preps have been discussed here, and not even a tenth of my own involvement or responsibilities in my group have been laid out in these words.

              2. First, let me thank you for your bulleta. It makes it easier to respond coherently.
                1. You have not refuted my number 1 from earlier. You DID say it was small and then said you never said a size. As all you have done is repeat yourself, I must, logically, take it that you accept you don’t know what you mean here.
                2. 2 acres isn’t small. You’re still being subjective, whoch is out of place. (I won’t say inappropriate, as it just this side of that line.) And while 2 acres IS doable with hand tools, that would, if anything make it a larger problem. So thank you for emphasis in my point.
                3. You are not a seamstress. I can tell by you saying that 680 yards is too much, as that is a conservative estimate, based on what I KNOW it takes to cover me in cloth, as I have done a project 4 months ago. It took 5 yards of cloth for top and pants, and I am only 5’10”. 680 yards is a minimalist amount, and even that was from birth to 25 years, rather than what it woild take for you, as the fact you imply your children are well past their infancy.
                4. Good. But that doesn’t change the fact you left the whole concept out of your article. As you fail to refute that point, I will understand that you accept this lack in your article, and have also accepted the critics and will be moving on from this point.
                5. No. I will not. This isn’t personal, and the fact you wrote a public article means this is PUBLIC no personal. As such, it is just fine and acceptable for anyone to point out the flaws with the logic. As you did not go BSC on anyone else who pointed out flaws, I can only logically conclude that you are making it personal. Stop doing so.
                6. Of course you did. You wrote the article and in a few places told people that they needed to do a specific thing. As such, yes you are saying “this is the way to do it.”
                7. Of course anyone else’s failures are on them. That doesn’t mean we, as a community and individuals, shouldn’t be prepared to point out errors and flaws. As this is a public article, it is not only my Right to express an opinion, it is my duty to refute those errors that can cause loss of life due to misinformation. Intentional or otherwise.

              3. Well apparently, repetition is required, as you are repeating the same erroneous info.
                1 & 2. I said a family of 4 can live on about 2 acres of food. I NEVER mentioned how large my own personal family garden would be, only that the medicinal area would be about an acre which would be a ‘small part’ of our garden.
                3. 5 yards for a shirt and pants? At 5’9″ and just at 200 pounds, it takes me 2 yds for the same items, so you are either wearing a ball gown, or you weigh approximately 600 pounds (and either way, that’s your issue). An average width of denim fabric is 57″ (or 4.75 feet wide) multiplied by 1 yard (3 feet) that equals 14 1/4 square feet per yard, times 5 yards equals 71.25 sqft of material. That seems pretty high to me. Even at 48″ wide fabric, that equals 60 sqft. So unless you’re using 2 ft wide fabric (and velvet doesn’t even come that narrow) or you made more than you stated, or you have LOTS of leftover, you don’t need 5 yds of ANY serviceable material to make one outfit. (Or your seamstresses were lying to you to add to their own stash). And btw, a 2-man army issue bivouac tent has about 5 yds of material in it, just for a reference.
                4. My article? I didn’t write the article. Only commented on Angela Cassidy’s article, and your comments. (And maybe another commenter or two) so if you have an issue with the author, take it up with her, not me.
                5. Refer to #4. And btw, if you think someone explaining why your erroneous ideas of what a person has written is considered “BSC”, then I understand why you also believe a “minimalist” would need almost 700 of anything, let alone yards of fabric. I also think you don’t understand what minimalism is.
                6. Again, see numbers 4 & 5 (and IM the one who repeats things?)
                7. You’re right. It also my duty to do the same, except with facts, not arbitrary rantings.

              4. 1. You have once again contradicted yourself. That isn’t erroneous, it’s a fact. Yeah, my repetition is necessary as you keep doing it.
                2. You skipped this number. Oopsy 😉
                3. Nope. It takes about 2.5 – 3 yards for the shirt and about 2 for the pants. That makes 5. Not ball gowns, not 600 lbs. You just don’t know what you’re talking about is all.
                4. Okay fair enough. But then why are you (attempting) to bust someone’s balls about something that person said in reference to the author’s post? I have talked about the author for so long, are you just now catching that?
                5. Quite frankly I don’t think that you caught that BSC was Bat Shit Crazy. And I don’t care about what you think about my comprehension, because yours is so far in doubt that anything you’re saying about mine is hilarious. My apologies if that offends you, but when you don’t know what you’re talking about, calling someone else’s comprehension into question doesn’t help.
                6. Considering that you are the one repeating yourself and I am making new facets of the same argument, yes you are repeating yourself. Of course it is also YOU who is harping about repetition. Not myself, yourself.
                7. What rant? I have systematically laid out my findings and my logic. I have in fact even given you the math to run things yourself. It isn’t me ranting, it’s you being on a control freak out about how somebody is proving you wrong and you can’t handle it.

  13. so basically one has to recreate an entire civilization. this means the geography needs to be carefully picked,farming town recreated and electronic surveillance in place. military is already EMP hardened and if in the service of NWO will want to destroy and non-enslaved survivors. how to protect against THEM? they have infrared tracking, satellites, drones, etc

  14. First, thank you for the post, and letting the community at large enjoy it.
    I did find some of this to be a bit unrealistic. Granted, some people may find this as the best options, but some things I did have issues with seeing as possible. For example the shoes. Space is going to be extremely limited for a lot of people, even in the country with few to no neighbors. How are they going to find the space for that number of shoes, when they are also having to prioritize food and such?
    Now, don’t get me wrong, shoes are important. But I find it better to slowly let feet harden (soles) and instead scavenge new shoes. No, I am not talking looting. But if you get some small tacks, you could use chopped up tires as new tread. Or sew it together onto the old shoe.
    This is just an example, but I saw a lot of effort put into buying and storing a lot of things that, in my opinion, could be better done with learning skills and using the resources to hand that will be in abundance rather than taking up space with things that aren’t needed in truth.
    THAT all being said, I still liked this article. I loved that there was emphasis on learning to use preservative measures, and stocking up on the stuff that, while seemingly small, will provide huge benefits to morale.

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